miss_s_b: (Who: Three (Polarity))miss_s_b ([personal profile] miss_s_b) wrote,
@ 2011-05-28 07:53 pm UTC
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Current location:sofa
Current mood: horrified
Current music:Doctor Who confidential
Entry tags:doctorwho
I liked the first five minutes of that. Then the continuity errors started annoying me - how many sonic screwdrivers? - then Rory falling for Jennifer!Ganger doing the helpless female act annoyed me. Then Jennifer!Ganger/monster looking like Mark Gatiss in the Lazarus experiment really annoyed me.

Then the Doctor committed murder. He's spent the entire two-parter telling us that gangers are people too, that the flesh remembers, that it is sentient, that it feels pain... And then he murders Amy!Ganger in cold blood. I'd figured out that Amy was going to be a ganger, and was wondering how they would resolve it, but I never, never thought they would do it like that.

And yes, I know, he has killed before - notably sending the hand of omega after the daleks - but only EVER after giving people a choice. He gave Davros a choice. He gave the silents a choice. He didn't give Amy!Ganger a choice. He just aimed and fired.

My Doctor is not a murderer. This episode is going into the Definitely Not Canon box in my brain.

I feel genuinely quite ill after that.

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(Anonymous)
2011-05-30 04:55 am UTC (link)
It's still murder, because the sentience that was inherent to the flesh, that was pushed aside by Amy's consciousness, was destroyed. That sentience was still in there somewhere; it just wasn't in control. That was the entire point of the two-part episode. That intelligence was living, feeling, and thinking. It might not have been aware to experience the pain of death, but it still died. It still deserved to be treated as a person and not summarily executed.

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davegodfrey: South Park Me. (Liff)


[personal profile] davegodfrey
2011-05-30 07:30 am UTC (link)
I don't agree. I think the sentience inherent to the flesh is replaced by the sentience inherent to Amy. There's nothing in the episode that indicates that the flesh's inherent sentience continues after its been formed into a ganger. Reverting a ganger to the base flesh is clearly stated to (very probably) destroy the consciousness of the ganger created from it, recreating the base consciousness of the Flesh. They're separate entities inhabiting the same matter in sequence.

There's also no indication (yet) that the Doctor has destroyed the Flesh that made Amy's ganger. Its reverted to its original form, and now we have the problem of what to do with it.

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(Anonymous)
2011-05-31 08:19 pm UTC (link)
No, actually, the exact opposite is clearly shown in the second episode, when Jennifer!Ganger shows Rory the used-up Gangers that have been left in a pile. It is clearly shown that they are still conscious and aware. That's why Rory was so determined to help her and stop the abuse of the Flesh. Jennifer!Ganger states that she remembers dying, whenever an accident happens in the factory. She tries to tell the other gangers, saying "The eyes are the last to go!"

If they were "separate entities inhabiting the same matter in sequence," its still murder.

I hope that last bit is true and that the Flesh that was Amy is alive and well in the TARDIS. It is the only thing that will redeem that scene in my eyes.

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davegodfrey: South Park Me. (Liff)


[personal profile] davegodfrey
2011-05-31 10:32 pm UTC (link)
No, actually, the exact opposite is clearly shown in the second episode, when Jennifer!Ganger shows Rory the used-up Gangers that have been left in a pile. It is clearly shown that they are still conscious and aware

Its left-over flesh that used to be a ganger and has retained the memories of its user- I didn't say it wasn't still aware and conscious.

Jennifer!Ganger states that she remembers dying, whenever an accident happens in the factory. She tries to tell the other gangers, saying "The eyes are the last to go!"

And she is contradicted by one of the other gangers who says she cannot remember it.

If they were "separate entities inhabiting the same matter in sequence," its still murder.

Not if the flesh while it is in the form of Amy shares her consciousness- which it does. At that point its one entity distributed over two bodies, but only aware of being one of them.

However we'll have to see what actually happens- I think there's too much ambiguity in the two episodes to be able to state things categorically (either deliberate or due to bad writing). Hence the continuous debate here. (I should probably step away from this discussion really- I think I'm in something of a minority here).

I've seen in a couple of places remarks by people who have presumably seen the next episode (on Radio Times, and in the Confidential after the second part) that they have got themselves out of this hole.

I suspect one reason we haven't been told the whole truth is that Amy waking up in a strange place with Frances Barber makes a good cliffhanger, and Rory shouting at the Doctor for an explanation makes a better opening.

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(Anonymous)
2011-06-14 04:50 am UTC (link)
Whether the discarded flesh retains some echoes of the memory of the human that used and discarded it or not, isn't really relevant, imho. The bottom line is that the Flesh has sentience *separate* from it's human user, an awareness that is shoved aside, when humans forcibly take control of it. That awareness still exists, when the humans are done and toss it away.

The whole point of the two-parter is that the Flesh are people, not equipment to be used and discarded. Yes, Jennifer!Ganger retained more memories, than the others, but the point is, she remembered. The memories and potential are there.

Not if the flesh while it is in the form of Amy shares her consciousness- which it does.

What does sharing Amy's consciousness have to do with it? It's not sharing her consciousness after the Doctor cuts the link. That's the important point. What happens to the Flesh's original consciousness, that was shoved aside by Amy's mind by their link? It appears as if it is destroyed and that makes the Doctor's action murder.

At that point its one entity distributed over two bodies, but only aware of being one of them

No. There are always two bodies and two entities. There's the Flesh body and mind and Amy's body and mind. Amy's mind temporarily takes up possession of the Flesh's body, making it appear to be her and suppressing the mind of the Flesh, who is somewhat aware, but lacking in autonomy. Amy has control, but she is not the only entity occupying the body.

Well, nothing was resolved by the next episode, to my disappointment. In order to maintain my respect for the Doctor and handwave Moffat's mistakes, I'm going to assume the TARDIS or the Doctor had made plans for the Flesh and that is is somehow alive and being cared for.

Moffat really needs to be more careful with these morality issues. I'm having to handwave a lot this season. *sighs*

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