If there's one thing that Liberals don't respond well to...

[miss_s_b]

Yeah, OK, there are lots of things Liberals don't respond well to. But really, Cleggy? REALLY? If I don't agree with every word of Shirley Williams' motion I am on the side of Andy Burnham?

Well, I guess I'm on the side of Andy Burnham, then. OR NOT. What is WITH YOU? Do you think that sort of wankery is going to make me, and others who don't appreciate what you're doing IN OUR NAME less annoyed with you? Really? Are you THAT stupid? See, this is the thing. I don't think you ARE that stupid. I think you are actively trying to drive me and others like me out of the party. And you know what? You're going to have to try a damn sight harder than that.

...

I just deleted a long stream of invective here, but I really am, very very angry. It's probably a good job I'm not in Gateshead.

Comments

[karohemd]

I just wanted to ask if you're actually there. Have been reading nothing but bad things. :/

[andrewhickey.info]

Don't believe everything you read - it wouldn't be a Lib Dem conference if the leadership didn't try to pick a fight with the membership, and we're not actually destroying the NHS, just fiddling with it for no good reason.

[karohemd]

Always happy to hear both sides. Just heard only negatives, from within and outside the party.

[andrewhickey.info]

Oh absolutely - I know how much negative stuff's been thrown around. Not got time to get into it properly, just wanted to reassure you that the world isn't ending.

[karohemd]

Cheers!

[zoeimogen.livejournal.com]

Seconded. good Q&A with the Health team yesterday and it was interesting to see Shirley was livid with much of the coverage. There are still problems with it but it's not where Labour and the press would have you think they are.

On the other hand, despite that, I'm definitely not pro the Bill anywhere close enough to vote for today's motion. Largely because it's a wreaking motion and the leadership tried to have the debate via the emergency ballot, not in the hall where it b elongs. I'm cross with that.

[bagpuss]

It would be great for someone to a refuation of points like http://abetternhs.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/ldconf/ and http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/what-will-the-nhsbill-do-i-dont-think-youre-w if they arent true

The tories track record does make this sort of thing all to plausible and it would be a great shame for them to get away with this because they can blame the Libdems

[miss_s_b]

I really wish I /could/ refute that.

[andrewhickey.info]

See my post from last night. The bill explicitly states that no new charges can be introduced without further legislation.

[bagpuss]

But there is plenty in the bill which would allow them to seriously reduce the service offered

It's all very well saying the cant charge for it but if they just don't provide it what choice will people have

[andrewhickey.info]

There *was* stuff like that in the bill, there isn't now.
CCGs (the replacement for PCTs) *do* have more discretion now as to what services they provide. The ostensible reason behind this is sensible enough - if you have a population of mostly old people, in a community full of retired people, you want to prioritise geriatric care, while in say Moss Side you might want to prioritise drug addiction treatment more.
However, there are several safeguards there. Firstly, the bill gives local authorities the authority to provide more services themselves, if they disagree with a CCG about what services should be provided. Secondly, the Secretary of State still has an obligation to provide a comprehensive health service free at the point of delivery. And thirdly there is a new obligation for the Secretary of State to reduce inequalities in healthcare provision.

(A lot of trans activists I know are delighted by that third part, as it will reduce postcode lotteries which stop people getting treatment in parts of the country.)

I'm not defending the bill as a whole - I disagree with it and think it's a bad piece of legislation - but a lot of what its detractors claim is not, as far as I can see, in the bill itself.

(A caveat - I am not a lawyer and have no legal training, and this is a four hundred page bill making amendments to two very complex existing acts. My interpretation may well be wrong. HOWEVER, none of the people I've seen complaining about this have been legally trained *either* - all the studies I've seen of the effects of the bill have come from doctors - and so their interpretation should not be trusted much more than mine. It's always best to read these things for yourself, but in this case it's close to impossible. Which is one reason I'm against the bill...)

[bagpuss]

I am sure I have a very naive view not know how legislation works but I can't help but feel any bill that has had more than 1000 amendments added to it wasn't thought through terribly well in the first place and it might be better to go back to the drawing board

[andrewhickey.info]

Couldn't agree more.

[miss_s_b]

I am legally trained, and I know how legislation works (although I haven't studied this bit of legislation in anything like the depth Andrew has). [A]ny bill that has had more than 1000 amendments added to it wasn't thought through terribly well in the first place and it might be better to go back to the drawing board is something many lawyers would shout from the rooftops if they could; although there are also those who would counter any bill that has had more than 1000 amendments added to it wasn't thought through terribly well in the first place and that means more money for lawyers as we fight it out in the courts down to the last comma.

[bagpuss]

Okay having thought about this a bit more I really don't see if a CCG decided it doesn't have the resources to provide a service is a Local Authority really going to go against that.

Even if they believe the CCG is wrong in the level of service that is provided where are the Local Authority going to find the money to pay the service and the infrastructure to actually be able to provide the service, presumably they will have to use what ever, that sounds like a sop rather than anything which will really happen

[andrewhickey.info]

Local authorities currently have a lot of healthcare responsibilities anyway - the idea as I understand it is that they'd contract a different CCG to provide those services.
The main bit though is the responsibility of the secretary of state to provide a comprehensive service, and the obligation to minimise inequalities. Right now, a PCT can, for example, decide that a new Alzheimer's drug is too expensive, while the PCT next door funds it. Under the new bill, though, the government is obliged to ensure that that sort of thing doesn't happen.
So there are actually multiple layers of safeguard in place.

[pseudomonas]

I'm there, and second Andrew's summary. Large waste of money, but not end of the NHS.

[djm4]

*sigh*

Yes, this. Plus:

1) Turns out from Nick's Q and A that he's quite happy to use the rear view mirror when talking about Lasbour's record in Government, just not ours (I am David Matthewman'e complete lack of surprise).

2) Calling the Emergency motion, as they have, 'Protecting the NHS: The Shirley Williams Motion' is possibly the most desperate measure yet. If you have to name a much-loved and respected member of the Lib Dems in the title of the sodding motion, it gives the impression that the actual content of the motion may not be all that persuasive. I suppose we should be grateful that they didn't call it the 'Viv Bingham Would Have Supported This You Heartless Bastards' motion.

3) The motion itself sets a new low benchmark for what constitutes an 'emergency'. I'm sure it won't stop FCC ruling out awkward subjects in the future, but it damn well should do.

4) It'll probably pass. I might even vote for it, depending on who says what in the debate, although I'm not currently inclined to. The NHS won't end because of it; it might even be better in some places.

5) Some of the Glee Club songs relating to the Merger and making concessions to those in those dangerous right-wingers from the SDP were sung with extra feeling last night. ;-)

[miss_s_b]

"I suppose we should be grateful that they didn't call it the 'Viv Bingham Would Have Supported This You Heartless Bastards' motion."

This made me LOL. I just got the result over the radio. I think it went the right way. Srsly, have they not learned by now that if you push Liberals they push back?

[rmc28]

I regret not getting to more of Glee Club last night, but I had to let fanf try the experience, and sproglet found it too noisy.

[andrewhickey.info]

*Applauds*
Couldn't agree more. Between Clegg's "Well, if you love Andy Burnham so much, why don't you marry him?" nonsense and the vast numbers of Labour tweeters who think that all Lib Dems ever are now personally going out and burning down hospitals, I think the entire political world is trying to make me burst a few blood vessels today.

[pseudomonas]

YES THIS. I'm in Gateshead. I'm not even sure I'll bother with the debate tomorrow - I'm non-voting and the whole thing will be incredibly stressful and depressing, and I'm stressed and depressed enough already.

Agree 100%

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sure I could fill in the deleted section to the last expletive.

Why is Clegg being such a fuckwit about this?

I'm not a Labour supporter, I'm a card carrying Lib Dem. Not only that, I'm an elected Lib Dem Councillor.

To insult my intelligence, Shirley Williams' intelligence (she didn't write the motion - Clegg's office did!), and that of every Lib Dem that disagrees with the motion goes beyond the pale. It's the kind of politicking I'd expect from other parties and quite frankly should have no place in the Lib Dems.

The bill is fundamentally flawed (as proven by the ridiculous number of amendments which partially address some of the concerns raised in Sheffield), and is being pushed through despite strong opposition from those who know far more than us (healthcare professionals).

Those healthcare professionals are justifiably worried about the impact on patient care, particularly in areas like mental health.

But Nick thinks it's coalition or Burnham. Fucking livid doesn't even begin to describe my feelings.

I nearly quit... But am now that angry that I am determined to stay and make life difficult for our "leader"

C.M

[gwenhwyfaer]

Actually, I think it's a damn shame you're not in Gateshead. I just hope someone who will say pretty much what you said here is, because it'd be awful to let Clegg's assertions go unchallenged.

(Especially when, quite by accident, Andy Burnham stumbled into the right, for possibly the only time in what will no doubt come to be referred to laughingly as his political career.)

[miss_s_b]

Oh sweetie, I am by no means alone in the party. The thing about Liberals is, if you push us (and the leadership have been doing this for some time) we push back, and we tend to push back pretty hard. It's an interesting time to be a Lib Dem, and I'd really have loved to be in Gateshead, but funds would not allow :(

[pseudomonas]

You are not alone, and I hope that you do keep pushing to keep the party honest.

[lizw]

If he's trying to drive me out, he's currently doing a bloody good job, what with the substance of what we've been doing on benefits + manipulating procedure in the worst way both in Parliament and at Conference + rhetoric like this. Awaiting the outcome of the emergency motion and George Potter's attempts (with others) to get the Parliamentary Reports rejected, plus a chat with djm4 when he gets back from Gateshead; but as matters stand, I don't expect to be a member of the Party by the end of this week :-(

[miss_s_b]

I'm currently in "I'm not going to let that arrogant southern tosser do this to MY FAMILY" mode. This may change, though.

[lizw]

More power to you. I'd be in that mode as well if I felt I realistically had the means of stopping him. I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could be more effective than George has been, given my current constraints. I still want to hear from djm4 what exactly happened there, and I'm glad the worst bit of the Shirley Williams motion got removed, but overall, this Conference hasn't given me much reason to feel I can achieve anything useful in this party at the moment.

[daweaver]

The whole NHS changes kerfuffle reminds me of the Twilight series. It's badly written, lots of people get very het up and shout over the minutest detail while others wonder what the fuss is about, and there's a huge wall of impenetrable and badly-written text to read just to make any sensible comment about the whole thing.

And now Mr. Clegg invites participants to pick. Team Andy or Team Shirley. Can't have both, it's one or the other. The cool sparkler or ... er, this metaphor's breaking down.

Why? Because it doesn't work. Life is more difficult, more complex, than these divisions. This-or-that might be acceptable in teen fanfic, but real life doesn't fit these simple models.

There is room for Team Andy, and for Team Shirley. And for Team Alice, Team Eric, Team Katniss. Maybe even Team Nick.

[andrewhickey.info]

I have quoted the first paragraph of this reply on my own blog (with attribution). Most sensible thing I've read all weekend.

[sir_guinglain]

I sincerely wonder now whether the health bill serves anyone's purpose; passing it seems reduced to a trial of strength. The divisions within its promoters have allowed Labour to control the PR agenda while obscuring the policy one, which helps nobody but Labour strategists anxious to distance the party from its own management of the NHS.

[rhythmaning]

Excellent rant. Thank you.

[(Anonymous)]

Even Shirley said the personalisation of the whole thing was a nonsense.