miss_s_b: (Mood: Kill me)
[personal profile] miss_s_b
We all know that a when gentleman who is married gets elevated, his wife becomes a Lady, but when a lady who is married gets elevated her husband gets precisely knack all - this is, of course, why the beloved Hon Lady Mark is known as such.

Now we have same sex marriage, what happens to the wife of a baroness or the husband of a Lord?

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 04:07 pm (UTC)
londonkds: (Default)
From: [personal profile] londonkds
In relation to the headline, there's no reason why they couldn't be called Prince Consort like the current one.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 04:12 pm (UTC)
sir_guinglain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_guinglain
The present one isn't - he's never been granted that title, which has only been used by Prince Albert. There isn't a customary courtesy title for the husband of a queen regnant of Britain; Mary queen of Scots's husband assumed the title of king and reigned as such in a half-hearted way as few in the Scottish elite were enthusiastic about it; Mary I of England's husband Philip of Spain was joint sovereign with her but his reign ended at her death and was then as good as erased from the historical memory. Mary II's husband reigned by parliamentary authority as William III beyond her own death; Anne's husband George of Denmark had a peerage, as duke of Cumberland, but suggestions by Anne that he become king were firmly resisted by her ministers.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 05:51 pm (UTC)
matgb: Artwork of 19th century upper class anarchist, text: MatGB (Default)
From: [personal profile] matgb
Mary II's husband reigned by parliamentary authority as William III beyond her own death

But that was because he insisted he be given the title King when they kicked James out in the not-an-invasion-honest "Revolution", so kept the position when she died but, by agreement, couldn't remarry and have it pass on, his claim was more tenuous than hers, etc. Weird special case that doesn't directly count (and he only wanted control of the army and the taxes to pay for it anyway).

Philip is a Prince though, just not Prince Consort, never understood why they don't just sort the system out properly, but then it hasn't been seen to need it until recently.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 06:05 pm (UTC)
sir_guinglain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_guinglain
Re: William - comparable to Philip and Mary and to Henry (Lord Darnley) and Mary; William's retention of the throne after Mary's death was the exception and ensured that the crown matrimonial would never be offered again. Any children William might have had retained William's place in the succession, so had William married again his offspring would have succeeded Anne.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 09:19 pm (UTC)
clanwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] clanwilliam
But that was because William was next in line after Anne through his mother or grandmother anyway - his hypothetical childrens' rights were not by him being King ex jure, but because he was third in line to the throne for much of his youth; in contrast, the marriage contract for Anne and George of Denmark was drawn up very tightly to ensure a foreign prince with little or no claim to the throne had no influence. The William and Mary thing was also partially to cement any attempts at saying a married woman couldn't hold the throne in an uncertain time (I bet someone referenced the Anarchy, cos there were definite parallels going on) and I bet Philip of Spain was referenced when sorting out Anne's marriage contract too.

Apparently Queen Victoria used to get very annoyed about George of Denmark since that contract was used as the basis for hers and limited her attempts to give Albert a job he'd actually be good at for ages.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 09:20 pm (UTC)
sir_guinglain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_guinglain
Yes, I know! I could write a lot more on this but was in a hurry...

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 10:04 pm (UTC)
clanwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] clanwilliam
I also think I misread part of the bit I replied to, but the staggering contrast in the marriage contracts is impressive.

Have Horrible Histories' take on the Anarchy.

I nearly died laughing just at the opening chord and shot.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 10:17 pm (UTC)
sir_guinglain: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_guinglain
There's also the contract between Princess Charlotte and Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg to add to the mix (and I should really look at them all).

Date: Saturday, May 16th, 2015 07:32 am (UTC)
nickbarlow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nickbarlow
I have read that William thought his claim to the throne was superior to Mary and Anne's, because their mother was a commoner (Anne Hyde) and James' marriage to her would have been regarded as morganatic on the continent. There were some efforts to persuade him to remarry after Mary died, but that was also linked to Anne's children continually dying and the Protestant succession looking increasingly shaky - it was an era when having both a long-term heir and a spare would have been seen as pretty incredible.

Not very well answered...

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
…by William Wallace last year in response to questions in the Lords:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldhansrd/text/140224-0001.htm

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I had this conversation wtih Paul Scriven during the election. Answer: husband of a lord gets nothing. This is not fair.

Mind you, this is not exactly the biggest problem with the House of Lords... that would be it's existence.

Date: Saturday, May 16th, 2015 12:43 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Mind you, this is not exactly the biggest problem with the House of Lords... that would be it's existence

What have peerage titles got to do with the House of Lords? The two are completely unconnected.

The House of Lords, as a legislative body, could be abolished tomorrow, and the peerage would still exist.

Date: Friday, May 15th, 2015 10:23 pm (UTC)
clanwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] clanwilliam
Also, I suspect that were an immediate member of the royal family to have a same-sex marriage (which basically boils it down to Harry, George and Charlotte in the future, and possibly Andrew, or indeed Anne and Edward), after they'd sorted out the whole issue with the CofE, probably modelled on Charles and Camilla's wedding, the spouse would be given a suitable but lesser title, along the lines of Lt Mountbatten, who renounced his own royal titles separately, but holds a suitable title and style as consort of the monarch.

Tim Laurence was knighted on marrying Anne. Mark Philips took no title, but he was offered one and he and Anne declined it (it's also why Peter and Zara have no titles and are not accorded the honorific of Highness; their parents emphatically did not want it for them, but I bet they get out of the curtseying protocol - did you know Kate has to curtsey to Beatrice and Eugenie at family dos?). Laurence probably took the title because he was already involved in Court and it helped his career.

Date: Saturday, May 16th, 2015 09:49 am (UTC)
po8crg: A cartoon of me, wearing a panama hat (Default)
From: [personal profile] po8crg
There's a statement from the Garter King of Arms somewhere about coats of arms for same-sex marriage. Because I'm actually twelve years old, all I can remember is sniggering about the repeated use of the word "impaled".

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