miss_s_b: (Default)
[personal profile] miss_s_b

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 10:11 am (UTC)
legionseagle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
Trust me, as a Labour supporter I've definitely noticed that. Along, of course, with the point that if the LibDems hadn't backed up Cameron in 2010, he wouldn't have been in a position to put Brexit on the table in 2015.

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 10:35 am (UTC)
hollymath: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hollymath
Yeah, because he'd have done it in 2010? They'd have had a minority government and he'd have had to appease all the same "eurosceptics."

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 10:37 am (UTC)
legionseagle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
With five years less of the BBC putting UKIP on every single Question Time and HIGNFY treating him and Boris as cuddly toys, Brexit might not have got the head of steam it did.

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 10:45 am (UTC)
legionseagle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
They existed, but by and large they were preaching to the choir. The way the BBC promoted UKIP and the Eurosceptics (and HIGNFY is now doing the same with Rees-Mogg) was a major factor in causing the shift in opinion which led to Brexit happening.

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 10:59 am (UTC)
legionseagle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
I think so, given that absent a time machine we can't tell whether a 2012 Brexit referendum would have had a different outcome from a 2016 one.

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 08:14 pm (UTC)
po8crg: A cartoon of me, wearing a panama hat (Default)
From: [personal profile] po8crg
I started writing a comment, and it got very long... so have a link to this: https://po8crg.dreamwidth.org/3102.html

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] theandrewhickey
And if Labour hadn't preferentially targeted Lib Dem seats in 2015 rather than Tory ones, because they consider their duopoly with the Tories more important than the good of the country, Cameron wouldn't have been in a position to call the referendum either.

And if Labour in 2011 hadn't opposed the AV referendum (which was in their manifesto) and had campaigned for AV, then again there'd have been no Tory majority in 2015 to call the referendum.

And indeed if Labour after the 1997 election had made the reforms to the voting system they promised in their manifesto and then didn't do, again, there'd have been no Tory majority in 2015 to call the referendum.

And if Labour hadn't had an official policy of opposing the European Union for the 1980s and early 1990s then so-called "Euroscepticism" would not have had the mainstream political credibility it has, and certainly the "Lexiters" (a small number of people, but large enough to be a deciding factor in the referendum) would not have existed, and the referendum would have been won by Remain.

And if Labour hadn't introduced referendums into what was before that a somewhat functioning Parliamentary democracy, first with the referendums of the 1970s on joining the EEC and on Scottish devolution and then in the 1990s with the further referendums on devolution, the cretinous idea that constitutional matters should be decided by referendum would never have taken hold in the first place -- and certainly had David Cameron not had the example of Harold Wilson using a referendum to silence critics from within his own party, he wouldn't have come up with the idea, and we wouldn't have had any referendums at all.

You know, if we're going to go around blaming people for several-years-down-the-line ripple effects of bad decisions...

Date: Tuesday, September 26th, 2017 12:23 pm (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
It sounds like the Labour Party are actually having quite a lot of internal debate (conversations, discourse, argument etc) about Brexit. They've just not chose to have a formal, set piece debate on Brexit in addition to their formal set piece debate on their Brexit report and the formal set piece debate on foreign affairs.

To be honest, as a remain voter who still doesn't want to leave the EU, I'd rather the Labour Party spent it's time at conference quietly talking to itself about whether it might want to change the Labour Party policy and the nation's policy instead of more publically having a staged debate - where lots get said but nobody changes their mind.

I think the differences between the Lib Dems and the Labour Party are important here. The Lib Dems are avowedly pro-European and their supporter base is almost entirely pro-EU. What's under debate is the tactics of opposition to the current national policy. For the Labour Party there are lots of members and supporters and voters who voted Leave and think leaving the EU is a good thing, or not an important thing. What's under debate is what the Labour Party believes.

I understand them wanting to have that conversation in private.

Date: Thursday, September 28th, 2017 08:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] explorerlaura.blogspot.com
I completely agree with you. BUT I'm also pleased that unlike Labour, our rules allowed us to force a change to the Agents. And its reinforced my long-held believe in the wisdom of crowds and specifically Conference versus the wisdom of elites. On most of the big calls since I joined the party, the membership view has proved right and the leadership view wrong. This is one more for the list.

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